S.
M. (Skinny) Holland was born in 1906. When he was 32 years old he
began working for the Union Terminal Railroad. Holland, who lived
in Irving, Texas, eventually became a supervisor for railroad track
and track signals for the company.
On
22nd November, 1963, Holland watched the motorcade of President John
F. Kennedy
from the overpass in Dealey Plaza. He said
that when Kennedy was shot he saw a puff of gunsmoke under the branches
of a tree on the grassy knoll.
Holland
later
gave evidence to the Warren Commission,
and the CBS: The Warren Report.
S.
M. (Skinny) Holland
died in 1975.
Open
Debate on the Kennedy Assassination
(1)
S.
M. Holland was interviewed by Samuel A. Stern for the Warren
Commission on
8th April, 1964.
Samuel A. Stern: Now, on Friday, November 22, will you describe what
you did concerning the President's visit and where you were.
S.
M. Holland: Well, about 11:00 o'clock, a couple of policemen and a
plainclothesman, came up on top of the triple underpass and we had
some men working up there, and I knew that they was going to have
a parade, and I left my office and walked up to the underpass to talk
to the policemen. And they asked me during the parade if I would come
back up there and identify people that was supposed to be on that
overpass. That is, the railroad people.
Samuel
A. Stern: Where are your offices, Mr. Holland?
S.
M. Holland: At the Union Terminal Station.
Samuel
A. Stern: Is that within walking distance of the triple overpass?
S.
M. Holland: Yes, it is. About - less than a quarter of a mile a very
short distance.
Samuel
A. Stern: And these policemen that you spoke to, there were 3 altogether?
S.
M. Holland: Two - there were 2 city policemen and 1 man in plainclothes.
I didn't talk to him. I talked to the city policemen.
Samuel
A. Stern: You don't know what his affiliation was?
S.
M. Holland: I know he was a plainclothes detective, or FBI agent or
something like that, but I don't know, and I told him I would be back
and after lunch I would go up there.
Samuel
A. Stern: Approximately what time did you arrive up there?
S.
M. Holland: Oh, I arrived up there, I guess, about a quarter until
12, and I would identify each person that came up there that he worked
at the Union Terminal and department so-and-so...
Samuel
A. Stern: Yes; and
did you participate in identifying people as being terminal or railroad
employees?
S.
M. Holland: When
they first started arriving, yes; it was my purpose for going up there.
Samuel
A. Stern: So, that
it is fair to say that at the time the President's motorcade turned
into this area, there was no one on the overpass that you didn't know
either as Terminal Co. employees, or railroad employees, or as a policeman?
S.
M. Holland: Wouldn't
be fair to say that, because there was quite a few came up there right
in the last moments.
Samuel
A. Stern: There
were? Tell us about that.
S.
M. Holland: That
I couldn't recognize. There wasn't too many people up there, but there
were a few that came up there the last few minutes, but the policemen
were questioning them and getting their identification, and...
Samuel
A. Stern: Is this
just about the time of the motorcade?
S.
M. Holland: Just
about the time, or just prior to it, because there was a few up there
that I didn't - that I didn't recognize myself.
Samuel
A. Stern: Had they
been, as far as you could tell, checked by the police?
S.
M. Holland: He was
checking them as they came on top of the underpass.
Samuel
A. Stern: Did it
seem to you that everybody up there had been checked by this policeman
for identification?
S.
M. Holland: I think
everyone was checked by some person.
Samuel
A. Stern: Yes. Can
you estimate the number of people that were on the overpass immediately
as the motorcade came into view?
S.
M. Holland: Well,
I would estimate that there was between 14 to 18 people.
Samuel
A. Stern: Now, where
was the motorcade when you first saw it?
S.
M. Holland: Turned
off the Main Street - in front of the county jail...
Samuel
A. Stern: Now, what did you
observe from that point on, Mr. Holland?
S.
M. Holland: Well, I observed the motorcade when it turned off of Main
Street onto Houston Street and back on Elm Street... and the President
was waving to the people on this side (indicating)... And about that
time he went over like that (indicating), and put his hand up, and
she was still looking off, as well as I could tell.
Samuel
A. Stern: Now, when you say, "he went like that," you leaned
forward and raised your right hand?
S.
M. Holland: Pulled forward and hand just stood like that momentarily.
Samuel
A. Stern: With his right hand?
S.
M. Holland: His right hand; and that was the first report that I heard.
Samuel
A. Stern: What did it sound like?
S.
M. Holland: Well, it was pretty loud, and naturally, underneath this
underpass here it would be a little louder, the concussion from underneath
it, it was a pretty loud report, and the car traveled a few yards,
and Governor Connally turned in this fashion, like that (indicating)
with his hand out, and another report.
Samuel
A. Stern: With his right hand out?
S.
M. Holland: Turning to his right.
Samuel
A. Stern: To his right?
S.
M. Holland: And another report rang out and he slumped down in his
seat, and about that time Mrs. Kennedy was looking at these girls
over here (indicating). The girls standing - now one of them was taking
a picture, and the other one was just standing there, and she turned
around facing the President and Governor Connally. In other words,
she realized what was happening, I guess. Now, I mean, that was apparently
that - she turned back around, and by the time she could get turned
around he was hit again along in - I'd say along in here (indicating).
Samuel
A. Stern: How do you know that? Did you observe that?
S.
M. Holland: I observed it. It knocked him completely down on the floor.
Over, just slumped completely over. That second...
Samuel
A. Stern: Did you hear a third report?
S.
M. Holland: I heard a third report and I counted four shots and about
the same time all this was happening, and in this group of trees (indicating).
Samuel
A. Stern: Now, you are indicating trees on the north side of Elm Street?
S.
M. Holland: These trees right along here (indicating).
Samuel
A. Stern: Let's mark this Exhibit C and draw a circle around the trees
you are referring to.
S.
M. Holland: Right in there (indicating). There was a shot, a report,
I don't know whether it was a shot. I can't say that. And a puff of
smoke came out about 6 or 8 feet above the ground right out from under
those trees. And at just about this location from where I was standing
you could see that puff of smoke, like someone had thrown a firecracker,
or something out, and that is just about the way it sounded. It wasn't
as loud as the previous reports or shots.
Samuel
A. Stern: What number would that have been in the...
S.
M. Holland: Well, that would - they were so close together.
Samuel
A. Stern: The second and third or the third and fourth?
S.
M. Holland: The third and fourth. The third and the fourth.
Samuel
A. Stern: So, that it might have been the third or the fourth?
S.
M. Holland: It could have been the third or fourth, but there were
definitely four reports.
Samuel
A. Stern: You have no doubt about that?
S.
M. Holland: I have no doubt about it. I have no doubt about seeing
that puff of smoke come out from under those trees either.
(2)
Warren
Commission Report (October,
1964)
S. M. Holland, signal supervisor for Union Terminal Company, came
to the railroad bridge at about 11.45 a.m. and remained to identify
those persons who were railroad employees....
According
to S. M. Holland, there were four shots which sounded as though they
came from the trees on the north side of Elm Street where he saw a
puff of smoke...
No
one saw anyone with a rifle. As he ran through the railroad yards
to the Depository, Patrolman Foster saw no suspicious activity. The
same was true of the other bystanders, many of whom made an effort
after the shooting to observe any unusual activity. Holland, for example,
immediately after the shots, ran off the underpass to see if there
was anyone behind the picket fence on the north side of Elm Street,
but he did not see anyone among the parked cars.
(3)
S.
M. Holland,
The Warren Report:
Part 2, CBS Television (26th June, 1967)
Just about the time that the parade turned on Elm
Street, about where that truck is - that bus is now, there was a shot
came from up-the upper end of the street. I couldn't say then, at
that time, that it came from the Book Depository book
store. But I knew that it came from the other end of the street, and
the President slumped over forward like that and tried to raise his
hand up. And Governor Connally, sitting in front of him on the right
side of the car, tried to turn to his right and he was sitting so
close to the door that he couldn't make it that-a-way, and he turned
back like that with his arm out to the left. And about that time,
the second shot was fired and it knocked him over forward and he slumped
to the right, and I guess his wife pulled him over in her lap because
he fell over in her lap.
And about that time, there
was a third report that wasn't nearly as loud as the two previous
reports. It came from that picket
fence, and then there was a fourth report. The third and the fourth
reports was almost simultaneously. But, the third report wasn't nearly
as loud as the two previous reports or the fourth report. And I glanced
over underneath that green tree and you see a - a little puff of smoke.
It looked like a puff of steam or cigarette smoke. And the smoke was
about - oh, eight or ten feet off the ground, and about fifteen feet
this side of that tree.
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