Time Search: Spartacus Educational
Forum Debates
The Kennedy Assassination
Saundra K. Spencer
Watergate
(1) Saundra K. Spencer, interviewed by T. Jeremy Gunn at the Assassination Records Review Board (5th June, 1997)
Q: Ms. Spencer, did you have any work after November 22nd, 1963, that was related to the death of President Kennedy?
A: Yes. We were requested to develop 4" by 5" color negatives and make prints of an autopsy that was - we were told it was shot at Bethesda after the President's body was brought back from Dallas.
Q: I would like to come to that in a minute. Prior to that, did you have any other work or responsibilities related to the death of President Kennedy?
A: We were trying to put together the prayer cards. Mrs. Kennedy had selected a black and white photograph, and so we needed a number of them. What we did was take four prints, 4" by 5" prints, and do the vignetting on those, and then they were copied to a master negative, and we took it downstairs and put it on the automatic black and white printers to print out the required numbers. Then, we brought them back and we did not cut them here. We brought them to the White House. They took them to the printers and evidently they were printed and cut there...
Q: So on Friday, November 22nd, 1963, did you do any work related to either the funeral of President Kennedy or to autopsy photographs that you mentioned?
A: No, we were primarily in a standby position.
Q: Approximately, how long did it take for you to work on the black and white prints?
A: It took most of the day. It seemed to me it was late, maybe 2 o'clock in the morning, by the time we got them over to the White House after we got the indication of which ones we needed to print.
Q: So this would be, then, you worked on them on Saturday, November 23rd, until approximately 2 o'clock in the morning on Sunday, November 24th, is that...
A: I can't remember the day. All I remember is that it was after the President's body bad been taken up to the Rotunda, because as we went to the White House, the lines were forming for the Rotunda.
Q: Just to make sure that I understand this correctly, that you took prints over to the White House, the black and white prints, and at that time, you noticed lines that were forming to go the Rotunda on Capitol Hill?
A: Yes.
Q: And at the time that you took the prints to the White House, do you remember whether the body was at the White House or whether it was at Capitol Hill?
A: It had to be up at the Capitol Rotunda at that time.
Q: Now, a few minutes ago you mentioned some work related to the autopsy photographs of President Kennedy. When did you first receive information that you would be doing some work on that issue?
A: We received a call from the quarterdeck, and they said an agent was there, and we were supposed to perform, photographic work for him. They logged him in and brought him up. He had in his hand 4 by 5 film holders, so I am estimating - he was a large man - so he probably had four or five film holders.
Q: Now, when you say he called from the quarterdeck, where was the quarterdeck?
A: The quarterdeck is on the first floor of NPC.
Q: Do you remember approximately when the telephone call happened, which day of the week?
A: No, I don't.
Q: Do you remember what you were doing at the time that you heard about the telephone call from the quarterdeck?
A: No, I don't. It seemed like it was in the morning.
Q: Were you working on the developing of the black and white prints, did it interrupt that, or was it before or after?
A: No, it was after.
Q: So it was after you had finished the prints. Had you done any other work between the time that you worked on the black and white prints and that you received a call from the quarterdeck?
A: We were finishing up job orders that we had, that had been requested from the White House.
Q: Do you remember the name of the agent who came with the film?
A: No, I don't. The only thing I remember, I think he said he was with the FBI.
Q: Do you remember we spoke earlier, you and I spoke on the telephone in December of 1996?
A: Yes.
Q: At that time you mentioned the name of an agent. Do you remember the name that you used at that time?
A: No, I don't, because I really couldn't verify that that was the agent, so I just - he was an agent.
Q: In December of 1996, you spontaneously said to us that you recalled the name was Fox, but that you weren't certain. Does that ring a bell?
A: Yes.
Q: When Mr. Fox or the person came to the White House lab, approximately, how many other people were working in the lab at that time?
A: Two others.
Q: Now, when you say that the agent had 4 by 5 film holders, what do you mean by that?
A: It means they either used a 4 by 5 press camera or a view camera, and a film holder is a two-sided container that holds two sheets of film, insert it in the camera, pull the dark slide, do your photograph, reinsert the dark slide, turn the holder over, and you are ready - and pull the dark slide, and you are ready for a second shot. So there is two sheets of film in each of the holders.
Q: When you refer to a press camera or a view camera, are those also known as large format cameras?
A: Yes, large format cameras.
Q: Now, if I recall correctly, you said that your recollection was that he had four or five of these duplex film holders, is that correct?
A: Correct.
Q: Did the agent speak to you directly or did he speak with somebody else?
A: To me directly.
Q: What did he ask you to do?
A: He said he needed the film processed and a print of each of them.
Q: What did you then do?
A: We took them and then checked our chemistry, brought it up to temperature, and processed the negatives. We put the negatives in the drying cabinet, and when they were completed, we brought them out. We went into the dark room and made a test print on them, which we processed and color corrected, and made the final print, at which time we took all scraps and anything related to that job, and put it in an envelope and gave it to the agent, returned his film holders to him.
Q: Did you keep any material at all related to the development of those photographs?
A: Absolutely not. The agent was very specific that he wanted everything, any test scraps or anything that we might use....
Q: Did you ever see any other photographic material related to the autopsy in addition to what you have already described?
A: Just, you know, when they came out with some books and stuff later that showed autopsy pictures and stuff, and I assumed that they were done in - you know, down in Dallas or something, because they were not the ones that I had worked on.
Q: Do you recall any books that you have seen with autopsy photographs in them?
A: I can't quote the titles of them.
Q: But you have seen commercially published books with what appear to be autopsy photos in them?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you ever hear of any discussion related to autopsy photos at NPC?
A: No.
Q: So, did you ever discuss the fact that you had processed those with Mr. Madonia, for example?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever discuss it with anyone else your own work?
A: No.
Q: Or did you hear of anyone else at NPC who had worked on any other autopsy photographs?
A: No.
Q: Did you have any opportunity to observe the content of the negatives and the prints as you were working on them?
A: Yes, I did.
Q: Can you describe for me what you saw as best you can recollect?
A: Briefly, they were very, what I consider pristine for an autopsy. There was no blood or opening cavities, opening or anything of that nature. It was quite reverent in how they handled it.
Q: If I can just ask for some clarification. Do you mean that the body appeared to be clean, had been washed? Is that what you are suggesting?
A: Yes.
Q: And that was different from what you had seen in other autopsy photographs, is that right?
A: Yes. In other autopsies, they have the opening of the cavity and the removing of vital organs for weighing and stuff of this nature. The only organ that I had seen was a brain that was laid beside the body.
Q: And that was in the photograph of President Kennedy?
A: Yes.
Q: So there was a brain in the photograph beside the body, is that correct?
A: Well, yes, by the side of the body, but, it didn't appear that the skull had been cut, peeled back and the brain removed. None of that was shown. As to whose brain it was, I cannot say.
Q: But was it on a cloth or in a bucket or how was it.
A: No, it was on the mat on the table.
Q: Did you see any people in the pictures in addition to President Kennedy, such as bystanders or doctors?
A: I don't remember anybody or any real measuring material, instruments, because normally, when you are photographing something like that, you have gauges in there, so that you can determine size and everything.
Q: Did you see any cards or any identification markers that would identify an autopsy number or the victim, or something of that sort?
A: I don't remember any.
Q: Were there any photographs that would show the entire body in one frame, do you recall?
A: It seems like there was a full-length one, kind of shot at a 45-degree angle, at a slightly high angle.
Q: Did you see any photographs that focused principally on the head of President Kennedy?
A: Right. They had one showing the back of the head with the wound at the back of the head.
Q: Could you describe what you mean by the "wound at the back of the head"?
A: It appeared to be a hole, inch, two inches in diameter at the back of the skull here.
Q: You pointed to the back of your head. When you point back there, let's suppose that you were lying down on a pillow, where would the hole in the back of the head be in relationship to the part of the head that would be on the pillow if the body is lying flat?
A: The top part of the head.
Q: When you say the "top of the head," now, is that the part that would be covered by a hat that would be covering the top of the head?
A: Just about where the rim would hit.
Q: Are you acquainted with the term "external occipital protuberance"?
A: No, I am not.
Q: What I would like to do is to give you a document or a drawing, and ask you, if you would, on this document, make a mark of approximately where the wound was that you noticed.
Q: Did you see any photographs that would have shown any wounds in either the neck or shoulders or back?
A: It seems like I seen - there was at the base of the neck.
Q: When you are pointing, you are pointing to the front of your neck to the right side?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you remember approximately how large that injury was?
A: Just about the size of like your thumb pressed in.
Q: About how much time were you able to look at the photographs, did you get a good observation of them, was it fleeting? How would you describe that?
A: It was - they traveled. You placed them on the drum, they would travel around, so after you place it on, probably about 15 seconds or so, they start under the drum and it rotates around, and then they drop off, and you grab them and stack them. So probably just 10 or 15 seconds.
Q: Are your observations based upon the prints rather than the negatives?
A: Yes. Like I said, the negatives have masking on them, and you don't see too much on a color negative when you are printing.
Q: And for the prints to dry, that takes approximately how long?
A: Probably about two to three minutes by the time it goes on, it goes around the drum.
Q: And that is all entirely on the drum?
A: Yes.
Q: So the prints themselves would not hang from a wire or anything?
A: No, they have electric drum, and it puts the ferrotype finish to it. That was before RC papers when you can air-dry them.
Q: What is your best recollection of the approximate size of the wound on the throat that you identified before?
A: Just about like that, just like a finger, half-inch.
Q: Do you remember whether the wound was jagged or how that appeared?
A: No, just - it appeared just indented. It was, again, clean, pristine, no - you know, it wasn't an immediate wound, it had some cleaning done to it or something.
Q: Were you able to observe any characteristics of the room in which the photographs were taken?
A: No.
Q: Do you remember what the walls looked like or whether they...
A: No, everything basically concentrated straight on the body. It didn't appear like the normal medical setting, you know. I don't know whether they did it in a separate room or they used special coverings on their tables or what, but I don't remember, you know, hospital stainless-steel gleaming or anything, or people running around in green scrubs or anything. It was just, like I said, it looked a very reverent laid out arrangement.
Q: What is your best recollection as to how long after the autopsy you received the photographs? Let me try and put it in terms of some other events that happened. Do you remember whether you developed the photographs before or after the funeral, for example?
A: It was before.
Q: Before the funeral. But your recollection also is that it was after the black and white cards had been delivered to the White House?
A: Right.
Q: Do you recall whether it was on a Sunday or a Monday?
A: It was sometime over the weekend. It was during the day. I believe the body arrived back at the White House Saturday morning about 1:00 a.m., so because we had a black and white photograph of it being carried into the White House. It was dark, so it would had to have been - the film would have had to have been shot by that time...
Q: So you would think that the photographs that you developed were taken after reconstruction of the body?
A: Yes.
Q: In the photograph that you saw in November of 1963, with the brain lying next to the body, were you able to observe whether there had been any damage to the brain?
A: No, it was not damaged as this brain, as the brain on these photographs were.
Q: When you say "these photographs," you means that we just saw today?
A: The ones that we just viewed.
Q: Ms. Spencer, before we started I said that I would give you an opportunity to add anything if you have any additional statement that you would like to make, and I will just give you that opportunity now.
A: I had brought along a photograph that was reproduced approximately 10 days prior to the time that we printed the autopsy photographs that we produced at NPC, and because of the watermark and stuff on it does not match those that I viewed, and NPC bought all of a run, which meant every piece of paper within the house would have the same identical watermarking and logo on it, I can say that the paper was not a piece of paper that was processed or printed out of the Photographic Center within that time frame. Like I said, the only thing I can think of is that a second set of autopsy pictures was shot for public release if necessary.